Bentley Arnage - Red or Green Label?

[A P S Kimberley]

Could I re-open the debate on the virtues (and possibly vices?) of the Red and Green Label Arnages? Some time has passed since the last posts on the subject and the evidence - and emotions - may have evolved.
I owned a 'T' for nearly 20 years (I've never been in a position to own a Vintage Bentley, and trying to keep a 1933 Riley on the road convinces me that I can only cope with one 'old' car) but parted from it a year or so ago.
I'm getting withdrawal symptoms... and have more or less decided that an Arnage might suit me; not a very old car, but not 'modern'. Perhaps an evolution of what I'm used to, not a revolution.
I've tried a Green Label, and liked it. although lacking the low engine note I was used to, the performance seemed good.
My questions are; what are the different engines like to own? And are the Green Labels still so unpopular - perhaps to the extent that selling it might prove difficult if I find that it's not right for me?
Any information or suggestions gratefully considered - though not necessarily acted on!

[Gary Masters]

I am afraid that I am not in a position to draw comparison between the Green and Red Label variants of the Arnage, however, I have owned a 2003 Arnage T for just over a year and have been very happy with my purchase. The cars are a great deal larger than I have been used to, nonetheless, they are incredibly easy to drive and although I'm not a speed merchant there is more than sufficient power available to move the car along at pace if needed.

When I began my search for an Arnage I noted that the Green Label cars were considerably lower in price than the Red's and put this down to the fact that people buying a new Bentley were reluctant to move away from the traditional 6.75 litre engines that were so closely linked to the brand for decades. I don't believe that the BMW engines were unfit for purpose, it was more likely to be a case of people deciding that if they were spending all that money on a new Bentley then they didn't want a BMW engine that was available to all in a much cheaper 7 series BMW.

[A P S Kimberley]

I was slightly surprised to have stirred up so little 'debate' on the 'Green versus Red-label' Arnages, but so it goes.
I tried a couple, found the Green Label very good, but rather like a normal car, only bigger. Having owned a 'T'-series for 19 years, I suppose I was expecting more 'period feel'.
I finally made my decision... and I now have a Continental R.

[Christopher Carnley]

Good choice, and an elegant coupe, that was developed by Pininfarina into the first and best looking of the Azure series.

[Stephen Blakey]

Good call, Adam. A future classic?

I am obliged to subscribe to the RREC in order to access the Crewe drawings. I was at the Hunt House recently and there was a chap there having a good old rant about the green label cars. It seems he'd had one and concluded it's not the car to have if you live somewhere where overtaking is necesary. He was quite funny about it but the gist was that by the time you've got enough boost to make some serious power and the transmission has woken up, you are then accelerating nicely but most of your overtaking opportunity has already gone.

There were naturally aspirated versions of that engine in BMWs producing serious performance without the lag. Rum do.

The Conti is a more desirable car IMHO.

[Christopher Carnley]

There was nothing wrong with the Green Label car, it was a step too far for the "Proper Bentley"(?) myth, in that it didn't have the Jack Phillips V8.

[Gary Masters]

A good choice Adam. I would have gone for a Continental "R" and test drove a couple of cars before being advised by my wife that we needed four doors not two. I recently had a conversation with someone I know through work who has a Continental "R" and seems to make very good use of the car on longer journeys when opportunity arises, he spoke of being able to drive in complete comfort for hours on end.
Gary.

[Roger Mathew]

Adam,

Sorry to be very late in catching up with the Forum generally and your post in particular. I have been running a '93 Conti-R since 2008 and agree with all those who opine that it is the most elegant and comfortable Bentley of the period. Mine has not been without its problems (see http://willowby.co.uk/bentley/ if you are interested), but it has given me great pleasure to compensate for the occasional frustrations. What year is yours?

I have been following Arnages via the web for a year or two, not as replacement for the Conti, but as a putative replacement for my daily driver (early Daimler SV8 that I have had for 12 years) if/when the time comes to retire it. I'll spare you an account of the Daimler, save to say that it still serves me well, has more grunt and better handling (and marginally better ride) than the Conti, but is not quite as nice a place to be.

Having tried both an Arnage R and a Green label, whilst I agree with Chris Carnley that the latter is a perfectly good car, it definitely lacks the urge of the Conti and would therefore not satisfy me as a successor to the Daimler. The R would, nearly, as it handles and rides better than the Conti and has at least as much performance, though not as much as the Daimler, so I am now minded to look for an opportunity to try an Arnage T. I am in no hurry to part with the Daimler and may never do so.

In assessing an Arnage T, I should be noting especially the ride quality by comparison with the Daimler - I am a little doubtful about effect of the large-wheel low-profile tyres that come with a T.

Roger

[A P S Kimberley]

Roger,
Thank you for your considered reply.
My Continental R was registered in 1992, but a previous owner seemed to want a newer car so made some modifications; it has a twin exhaust, wing vents and other cosmetic changes, notably a mesh grille. More regrettably, it has 'satnav' which unfolds from the dashboard like something from Wallace & Gromit, but there's so much extra wiring I think it would be difficult to revert to something more original.
I tried Arnages both Green- & Red-label and found both comfortable and with 'adequate' performance and good road-holding. The Red-label felt more 'Bentley-like' with plenty of torque from low revs; the Green much more like my everyday Jaguar XF - in other words, more like a modern car.
I had been warned off Arnage 'T's by a dealer who said they were harsh, but riding in one as a passenger didn't seem so, it felt similar to the others.
For me, living within the M25, performance - or at least, serious performance - isn't very important as I'd like to avoid 'road rage' and keep my driver's licence.
I've looked through your account of Continental R ownership with interest. My car has no seat-belt presenters, but I have had problems with the passenger seat controls already!
Adam K.

[Paul Spencer]

[A P S Kimberley]

As it happens, I have recently retired and am looking for somewhere to live outside the M25... the Cotswolds seem to be 'front runner' at present.
As I think my previous messages imply, I did go for a 'feeling' of performance in my eventual choice of car; the Continental R may not really be quicker than an Arnage, but it felt to be a more enjoyable drive.
I have only had one chance to enjoy it on open roads, and found that at what (in England) passes for speed, the steering became uncomfortably light. Is this normal? My previous 'T'-series remained stable at 100mph-plus, the Conti in theory should be very much faster, but I'm aware that it was a development of the Shadow-series cars, so I'm wondering whether the chassis wasn't really suitable for high speeds?

[Roger Mathew]

Adam,
Belt presenters were not fitted to the '92 cars. Also, I think you have a proper glovebox instead of a passenger airbag. When you say "mesh" grille, I hope you mean "laser cut"; it is a matter of personal taste, I guess, but I think it improves the appearance, compared with the original vanes. Mesh is another matter. AFAIK, wire mesh was only fitted to Bentley 8 cars as original equipment, though some people have replaced vanes with mesh as a less expensive alternative to the "proper" laser cut grilles that were fitted to late Turbo R and Continental R models.

I fear you will have some ECU issues to come. It seems that they start to fail at around this age. As you will have read from my account, I have had gearbox, seat and cruise control ECUs rebuilt; also the active ride ECU when the front struts were replaced. No-one knows anything about the presenter ECUs and the consensus is that the whole design was irremediably flawed, I have now given up on those: they were nice while they lasted. The seats are affected by both the seat ECUs and the gearbox one; and the latter also governs the parking brake release. Fortunately, my local specialist deals with an electronics wizard who rebuilds the boxes, so I do not have to buy new ones (which are not always readily available).

I hope you enjoy your Conti R as much as I do mine. The early cars had very comfortable, large seats. I found the Azure-type seats fitted to later cars to suit me less well; their main merit is in having seat belts built into the seat, thus eliminating the justification for troublesome presenters.

Interesting that your daily driver is a XF. My Daimler has the supercharged 4.0 engine, which gives it a "squirtability" that the Conti-R cannot match and is so much more missing from the Green Label Arnage that I should feel horribly deprived. I think the alleged harshness of the T may have more to do with the tyres than anything else. I may be wrong, but I think that extra-low-profile tyres on excessively large-diameter rims were a frequently-chosen option - ill-advised, in my opinion: Bentleys are not not intended to be hurled around at 2+g sideways
Roger

[Roger Mathew]

Addendum. On light steering. This is not anything I have noticed on my car. Have you had the tracking checked? Incorrect toe-in could perhaps cause such a symptom, as well as scrubbing out expensive tyres prematurely. My local ATS can supply me with tyres, but did not have tracking kit able to accommodate the Bentley's wheels, so I had that done separately.
R

[A P S Kimberley]

Yes, the large seats in the earlier Continental R are a delight. They seem to give a very 'close fit' to my back, and excellent support, comfortable for hours at a time. Interestingly, my wife, who is nearly a foot shorter than I, finds them equally good. I should like an extra inch or two on the seat-squab ideally, otherwise I find them near-perfect.
The 'super-light steering' seemed to happen quite suddenly at just over a certain speed, 30mph faster than acceptable in the UK, so I felt that it was likely to be aerodynamic? The 'T' lacked a front air dam, the T2 had one, and the Conti lacks one again. Tracking & tyres have been checked, and the air-flow over the car is quite sensitive; a 'drumming' at around the legal limit was found to be air-flow making the bonnet vibrate (it has been adjusted now) if driving into the wind, but not in side-winds.
The grille is indeed laser-cut, and it has the later, clear front indicator lights as well, so that it resembles a later car. All a matter of taste, and I'm happy with it.

[Lawrence Gatehouse]

Interesting thread...

I had a Conti R in the mid 90's, followed by an Arnage, 2 Flying Spurs - one in 2007 and 1 in 2015, but now have a 2009 model Brooklands and prefer the coach built cars for the quality of the workmanship and the finishes.

Photo's of the car can be seen in the Pistonheads forum, under 'other marques' then Rolls Royce & Bentley thread.

Lawrie.