R Type Continental 1954

Eddie Young · Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:05 pm Post subject: R Type Continental 1954

Replacement clutch needed.

Has anyone had recent experience in replacing the clutch on 4.9 engine and if so can you pass a recommendation on which type to consider and if a new fly wheel is needed?
Understand the failure rate on new clutches is becoming of concern with poorly made components.

Eddie

Christopher Carnley · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:11 am Post subject:

Eddie,

First post, eh!

The flywheel and clutch are the 11" R-R "heavy" pattern, with a 3 part flywheel and a friction plate and pressure plate borrowed from the Ferguson tractor. The Borg and Beck friction plate is unusual for, service reasons, in that there is no front nose on the 10 splined hub which is in effect pushed backwards.
There was only about 2 mm of fibre lining above the rivet heads and wear from the bored out R Type engines was quite rapid, with lower than expected clutch life.
The extended running of the flywheel inner on the rivets generated so much heat that the free graphite in the cast iron went into solid solution, creating very hard spots on the surface.
The consequence being that relined clutches wore out rapidly, as no attention was given to the state of the flywheel friction surface.

New three part flywheels are available.

As to the clutch plate and pressure plate there is a guy close to me, in Wakefield, who runs a business called tractorclutches.co.uk, and reconditions used friction plates and covers for most of the specialist suppliers. He is called Trevor Hanson, tel 01924 453140, and knows all about clutches.

Stephen Blakey · Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:19 am Post subject:

Hi Eddie,

Welcome to the forum.

The most abused 4.9 clutch in the club must be that in Paul Forty's very successful race-car. Maybe you could ask him for some tips? He's a helpful chap.

It would be good if you could share your eventual conclusions with the forum.

Good luck

Stephen

Eddie Young · Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:15 pm Post subject:

As a new member to your forum I'm most grateful for your input Christopher and Stephen. Your depth of knowledge is remarkable. I regularly use a sailing boat forum that invariably 'drifts' off the point so this makes an interesting departure.
I will start by calling Trevor Hanson. Many thanks and will let you know the result in a few weeks.
Happy Christmas
Eddie

John Robins · Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:19 am Post subject:

Welcome, and glad you have a good experience with your first posting.

Don't expect this forum to arrive at the mark on starboard every time though!

Eddie Young · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:42 pm Post subject: R Type Cont. 1954 clutch

In follow up to Christopher's suggestion to contact Trevor/Tim Hanson of ACS Ltd, Wakefield who's recommendation is stay with a spring lever reconditioned clutch for later adjustment reasons. However, Padgett Engineering is recommending change to modern diaphragm clutch with a new flywheel. My engineer would rather go with the latter as a better clutch for the car's high ratio gearing.
Anyone had experience with Padgett clutches?
Eddie

Christopher Carnley · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:50 pm Post subject:

Hi Eddie,

Racing Green Engineering incorporated several of Jeremy,s lightweight flywheels and diaphragm clutches into their various high quality "Specials", hoping for some overall improvement, but there was no appreciable difference. The front housing of the gearbox had to be modified to clear the new thrust bearing arrangement

As I rebuild gearboxes for both parties I cannot "afford" to be disparaging of the reasons, except to say that availability of parts and the thrust bearing were factors in the latters decision.

There is absolutely no reason to modernize the existing layout and I second the recommendation of Trevor Hanson.
I would suggest a new 3 part flywheel to eliminate the hard spot problems, as it can involve the removal of up to .100"of cast iron, twice the R-R recommended removal.
Even a small change in any of the Rolls-Royce designs involves a lot more modifications than expected.

Eddie Young · Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:15 am Post subject: R Type Cont. 1954 clutch

Christopher, you earlier mentioned 'new' 3 part flywheels are available. Any idea where I might find one? Trevor/Tim of ACS Ltd do not have any and therefore suggest reconditioning ours.

Eddie

Christopher Carnley · Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:35 pm Post subject:

I will PM with details.

Richard Munton · Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:59 am Post subject:

Try Di who runs Truckfix at Cleckheaton - she knows more about vintage/classic Borg and Beck clutches than anyone else alive. Did a great job rebuilding the 50s clutch in my Speed Six and has all the spares.

Christopher Carnley · Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject:

I believe that the firm closed due to ill health, October 2016.

Eddie Young · Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: R Type Cont. 1954 clutch on 4.9.

We have just completed the exercise of overhauling the clutch and gearbox.
As recommended by the Forum we kept original throughout using the spring and lever clutch and original flywheel with just .0500" taken off. Our problem came after re-fitting. On start up a rapid vibration at over 1500 rpm became evident and holding the steering wheel felt more like a buzz bar! Adjustments were made to all external mounts etc. until it was time to remove the gearbox and clutch again. Once removed the engine was started and showed no vibration. So the clutch and flywheel went off for dynamic balance testing. Result - 21g on clutch housing and 9 g on fly wheel. These corrected and once back and gearbox fitted, started up, 'Puurrrfect'. Amazing what 30g can do in the wrong place. Lessons learnt all round, balance each component, assemble and balance again, then fit back.

Eddie

Stephen Blakey · Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:46 pm Post subject:

Eddie,

Thanks for the post. These threads often don't come to much in the way of a conclusion which can be a little frustrating.

That's about an ounce in old money. Who'd have thought it would make such a difference?

Best wishes,

Stephen

Al Coutts · Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 4:35 pm Post subject:

Eddie - how was the balancing done?

Christopher Carnley · Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject:

The car was at Royce Services who had the individual parts dynamically balanced.

When the cars were made, the basic engine was balanced along with the flywheel and clutch assembly,and you may notice balancing holes drilled into the flywheel parts.