Driving in France in a Vintage Car

[Malcolm J Crump]

I am planning my first trip to France in Brittany and the Loire Valley in my 1924 3Litre. Please can anyone answer the following two questions: -

1) Do I need to fit seat belts? (all I can find on the internet is that seat belts are mandatory).

2) Do I need to fit "dipping deflectors" on the headlight lenses or can I simply twist the lights a little?

Many thanks for any help.

Malcolm Crump (membership 14536)

[Chris Card]

Put it this way - wehave taken and shortly will again be taking our 4.5l to France and do none of those things. We have never been stopped or questioned. So far . . . !

Chris

[Malcolm J Crump]

Thanks Chris; as you say "so far..." I'm hoping to get a definitive answer and if I do I'll pass it on to you privately.

Best wishes
Malcolm

[Christopher Carnley]

"AH, la Beau Bentlee!".

Log onto the RAC website, and find the travelling in France feature. There are 10 main points, and a further article.
The requirements include that you are required to carry a breathalyser kit, and either a pink or a photocard licence.

Noisy cars are sent off with, "Bon lavage"!

[Malcolm J Crump]

Many thanks Christopher, I'm getting warmer. It seems that the RAC view is that it is compulsory to wear seat belts "...where available" which I assume (but can't be certain) excludes some if not all cars that were never fitted with seat belts. At the back of my mind some "classics" more recent than my 1924 car had to make retrospective fitting of seat belts so I'm not quite there yet.

Best wishes

Malcolm

[Robert Craven]

I’m sorry this rather lengthy reply doesn’t precisely answer your question. I’ve spent some time in the past trying to get an authoritative answer to this without complete success but I’ll set out what I’ve found. I think you’d have to be quite familiar with French law and its sources to be sure. There are plenty of websites etc (eg the RAC site) which confidently say vintage and classic cars don’t need seat belts on the Continent but they never give an explanation referring to any precise law which you can easily look up. If any French policeman stopped you (pretty unlikely) it wouldn't be much use referring him to some UK motoring site.

Nevertheless like Chris I’m sure you don’t need belts. I’ve been to France in my 3 Litre several times alone and in small and large groups and we’ve all encountered or been visible to the police and other authorities without any query about the lack of seat belts. At Angouleme the city was awash with belt-less cars of various nationalities without any problem.

I think French law is essentially that if the car is fitted with a seat belt you must use it but if it lawfully has no belts you’re OK: see Code de la route https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do?idArticle=LEGIARTI000026204405&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006074228 (the first sentence). If you need to you could use Google Translate on this but I don’t think it’s perfectly accurate.

I think from 1970 French vehicles had to be made with seat-belt anchorages and from 1973 they had to be used, but the only source I’ve found for this is Wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceinture_de_s%C3%A9curit%C3%A9#Obligations

So it seems pre-1970 cars don’t need them.

Somewhat contrary to what I’ve just said is this (semi-official?) EU website: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/going_abroad/united_kingdom/seat_belts_en.htm

If you look up the UK it says correctly that seat belts needn’t be worn in classic cars made without them, but if you look up France, Germany, Spain etc no such exemption is mentioned. I suspect this is misleading.

As to headlights, I haven’t delved into this, but like Chris I don’t think you’ll have a problem unless you’ve fitted modern left-dipping headlights. And as he says you could presumably twist your lights to the right.

I wonder if John Murch, who frequently travels to France, can add anything (for those of you who haven’t fallen asleep)? If anyone finds a definitive answer I think they should post it here.

PS I took so long to write this that further posts have appeared since I started.

PPS There's some corroboration of the 1973 date in this French document here http://www.ladocumentationfrancaise.fr/var/storage/rapports-publics/054000574/0000.pdf Search for 1973 to find it.

[John Murch]

I have been stopped by the French police a couple of times, for no discernible reason, other than they wanted to look at the car and have a chat!
No mention of seatbelts. I would agree totally with Robert's comments.
Likewise with headlights, mine are not dipping, I just twist them a bit and if nobody flashes me, I reckon they must be about right.
Regarding other items, warning red triangle & yellow safety jackets must be carried and accessible without getting out of the car!
The breathyliser law is sort of on hold, in theory you should carry two, but if you don't have them you will not be liable to any fine.
I'm off to France on Monday with the mid west region trip to the Loir, it will be my first ever 'group' trip
John

[Robert Craven]

Malcolm,
On a quite separate note, I think Brittany and the Loire will be excellent places for your first trip abroad in the 3 Litre and I wish you well. When I first took mine abroad I was probably over-concerned about where to park it and we confined ourselves to hotels with enclosed car-parks. Occasionally you have to take a risk. The first hotel had such a steep underground car-park that I had great difficulty and clutch burning getting out again.
As a result of experience my collection of spare parts got greater every trip.

[Malcolm J Crump]

Thank you John and Robert. I google translated the information on Robert's links but, as we all suspected, I still haven't got anything definite. The AA claim they don't know by the way and I suspect that they won't give advice because they are uncertain too - can't say I blame them. They did suggest that I ask the Ferry company and that will be my next port of call. They also suggested I ask the Post Office!! Can't think why.

John's comments on hotel parking are interesting. Fortunately I have an ex school pal who is fluent in French, visits there regularly and has lived in France. When he gets back from Berlin next week I shall pick his brains.

When I get to the end of this trail I will post my findings if they tell us more than we think we already "know"

Regards
Malcolm

[Robert Craven]

None of us doubts that you don't need seatbelts but your pal will have to be very knowledgable if he can specify the particular French law or regulation which says pre-1970s cars don't need seatbelts in accordance with Article R412-1 (rather than just finding some precis on some French motoring website). I bet French law on this is just as complicated as our law and could well be a combination of French and EU law and even depend on the absence of any particular regulation.

PS it may be the relevant date is 1967. I've found some French motoring websites which say this, but just like UK sources they often don't condescend to saying what laws they're referring to, except perhaps this https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000310249
I may well be wrong about this, but this seems to be a law introduced in 1975 with retrospective effect.

[Malcolm J Crump]

Thanks Robert, I'll be in touch if I uncover anything that we don't already know.

Malcolm

[John Murch]

It would be nice to be able to quote the French legislation, but if the AA and RAC cannot, I suspect it is a woolly area.
I was at a Bugatti rally two years ago, of about 40 cars circa 35 were french, I did not see any with belts. All these cars would have been through the CT (French mot), if seatbelts were required surely one tester would have failed a car. When I asked my local CT inspector what requirements there were that would effect my 1922 Citroen, seatbelts were not mentioned.
I've been driving in France in vintage, pvt and pre 1965 cars for 50 years, can't help but think some official would have said something!
John

[Malcolm J Crump]

John,

I agree with you entirely but what puzzles me is that no one appears to have said anything ever; not even that you definitely don't need seat belts. I would have expected, given the onset of EU legislation that the matter would have been raised somewhere, some how.

There will be a French Federation for old cars (France was after all way ahead of the UK in the very early years of motoring) who presumably will know the answer, even if they confirm that it is "woolly" and "nuance" is of French derivation I believe!

Your half century of silence on the matter is encouraging - thanks.

Malcolm

[John Murch]

France seems full of unclear situations, laws that are not applied etc.. I think the Gallic shrug is all you would get from the French police.

[Robert Zannetti]

Malcolm, when are you going as we expect to be in Brittany 4-11 June in our 3 litre.

[Malcolm J Crump]

I'm inclined to agree. I can live with a Gallic shrug so long as it doesn't become a Gallic Hug!
Malcolm

[Malcolm J Crump]

Robert,

Not for along while yet but as there a few longish pieces of preparation that need doing I wanted to ask the seat belt question early. It sounds as if my concerns are unfounded which is just as well since I'm not sure that elegant and effective anchoring would be easy.

Thanks for your thoughts about meeting up.

Best regards

Malcolm